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 Post subject: Re: E85 - Engine Oil Compatibility
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 4:18 pm 
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I Say: Plan for tomorrow,Live for TODAY!
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Totally and seriously impressed!

Very impressive !

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 Post subject: Re: E85 - Engine Oil Compatibility
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 12:36 pm 
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I Say: Plan for tomorrow,Live for TODAY!
Vehicle: MY12 XT

Posts: 84
Location: Sydney
Hi OzFozers,

After the recent posts, I started doing quite a bit of research, I think it is good news, but I will let you judge.

I contacted Radium, who manufactures AOS & Catch cans, yes different..... They produce two products, each for a different purpose.

Catch cans - Which are typically non-heated, aim to catch water and oil mixtures. The cream that you see is the cooled version of the mixtures. They are also designed to catch contaminants - which are more prevalent in fossil fuels. As Ethanol burns cleaner.

AOS (Heated) - designed to separate Water from the oil, where water is more prevalent in E85 fuel, hence allowing the oil to put back through the system. The water/ethanol(unburnt fuel) is in vapour form, so it gets sucked back through the intake to be burnt off.

The excessive fluids found in the catch cans is the water vapour condensing, also exacerbated by cold cans, and even more with short trips that do not allow for sufficient temperatures for the vapour be at high temperatures. That is, keep your engine hot enough for it to stay as vapour to be burnt off. As noted, catching more in colder months.

Most reports that I have seen say that the water caught is so clear that it looks drinkable, but not in all cases. Which makes me think of what else is causing the shades of urine in some of the photos. It may be the colour of the fuel ???

I would be interested to see what happens if the liquid is left standing for a while to see if anything settles to the bottom or separate.

Thought ? Comments ?

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VF-52 with Lava blanket, 11psi WG Spring, Company23 EBCS, 3" Mishimoto CAI, PSR Intake, Headers & Up-pipe Lava wrapped, Large TMIC, GFB BPV, Grimmspeed AOS, 3" TBE, F&R Whiteline HD Anti-Sway bars, DW65C, ID1050x inj, Exedy HD Clutch, DBA F&R T3s - Pmu NS400S, Short shifter,Pitch Stop Mount, KiddoRacing 18psi Tune for E85(FF Shifting & Launch Ctrl)-220kw atw


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 Post subject: Re: E85 - Engine Oil Compatibility
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 1:16 pm 
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Vehicle: MY08 XT (SH)

Posts: 1142
Location: Brisbane
Cheers for putting up the manufacturer's summary. So where does that research take you in terms of what you're looking at doing at this point?

[FYI if you do a youtube search for "flatirons tuning" those guys have a video series where they weigh up and test most of the catch can issues that are coming up in this thread. ]

My opinion is that the "return to sump" heated catch can (by whatever name) is probably a good idea for a circuit race car where the oil is likely to be very hot, the maintenance regimen is better and the driver can't afford for the catch can to fill up during a longer race & start sucking fluid into places it shouldn't be. That same racecar setup might also look into "vent to atmosphere" options rather than sending the water vapour through the turbo/intercooler/intake since emissions compliance will not be an issue on the track.

For a daily driven car on E85 the conditions (eg consistent heating of whole setup) are sub-optimal a lot of the time even with the best intentions Re driving habits. As such, with a "return to sump" heated catch can you're probably still draining your non-evaporated condensation straight into the sump for the first n minutes after cold start, then potentially leaving it there if the sump oil didn't heat up during the short trip. Probably worse than "no cans" in terms of getting liquid water in the sump.

There is also the extra plumbing to deal with and the associated cleaning & maintenance. I clean my two non-drain-back catch cans semi-regularly. It's an ok-but-annoying job but i'd hate to also have to unhook coolant lines (& deal with spillage, bubbles, etc), drain-to-sump lines, etc. Every "dirty side" hose looks like an artery full of cholesterol and the "clean side" hoses aren't perfect. Removing hoses from barbed fittings in tight places can be a knuckle-skinning exercise sometimes, etc.

Installing catch cans (non-heated, non-drain-back) in these engine bays is already an exercise in creativity & compromise to get locations of cans & hoses that are fairly workable and easily serviced. Heated & drain-back setups are obviously doable, just with more to deal with.

----

I'd also be interested to read any analysis of the "yellow water". My guess is it's predominantly water with some unburned fuel and some engine oil dissolved by the fuel.

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 Post subject: Re: E85 - Engine Oil Compatibility
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 2:35 pm 
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I Say: Plan for tomorrow,Live for TODAY!
Vehicle: MY12 XT

Posts: 84
Location: Sydney
Hi Yowie,
The reason I put up their response is because I challenged them, their blog indicates that catch cans are better, as it traps, yet they had a product that returns oil.

The core of both the solutions is to remove oil vapour from the intake, firstly to avoid lining the intake and intercooler with oil that reduces efficiency, secondly to get rid of the vapour that can cause pre-detonation.

The choice will come down to your specific application, each has its own pros and cons.

I can see that the AOS was being effective, in that oil top-ups are not required anymore. which means that I was taking a lot of oil vapour through the intake - I feel lucky nothing has broke!

On the positive side, when installing the AOS - I took the liberty to clean the intake with Sea Foam, along with a very specific intercooler clean which in itself was not pretty......

So with my installation, I have got it down to almost no maintenance! I don't know how you deal with the catch cans, it would drive me nuts.

-------

Yes - some analysis of that yellow water would be nice, I agree with you summation of what it may be.

Given this thread of discussion, I have ordered a Nulon Oil Testing kit. Just to be on the safe side, I want to see what is in there ! More posts to come !

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Silver Fox !
VF-52 with Lava blanket, 11psi WG Spring, Company23 EBCS, 3" Mishimoto CAI, PSR Intake, Headers & Up-pipe Lava wrapped, Large TMIC, GFB BPV, Grimmspeed AOS, 3" TBE, F&R Whiteline HD Anti-Sway bars, DW65C, ID1050x inj, Exedy HD Clutch, DBA F&R T3s - Pmu NS400S, Short shifter,Pitch Stop Mount, KiddoRacing 18psi Tune for E85(FF Shifting & Launch Ctrl)-220kw atw


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 Post subject: Re: E85 - Engine Oil Compatibility
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 11:15 am 
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Vehicle: MY17 BRZ, MY11 BT-50

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Location: Medowie (near Newcastle), NSW
Yowie wrote:
Cheers for putting up the manufacturer's summary. So where does that research take you in terms of what you're looking at doing at this point?

[FYI if you do a youtube search for "flatirons tuning" those guys have a video series where they weigh up and test most of the catch can issues that are coming up in this thread. ]

My opinion is that the "return to sump" heated catch can (by whatever name) is probably a good idea for a circuit race car where the oil is likely to be very hot, the maintenance regimen is better and the driver can't afford for the catch can to fill up during a longer race & start sucking fluid into places it shouldn't be. That same racecar setup might also look into "vent to atmosphere" options rather than sending the water vapour through the turbo/intercooler/intake since emissions compliance will not be an issue on the track.

For a daily driven car on E85 the conditions (eg consistent heating of whole setup) are sub-optimal a lot of the time even with the best intentions Re driving habits. As such, with a "return to sump" heated catch can you're probably still draining your non-evaporated condensation straight into the sump for the first n minutes after cold start, then potentially leaving it there if the sump oil didn't heat up during the short trip. Probably worse than "no cans" in terms of getting liquid water in the sump.

There is also the extra plumbing to deal with and the associated cleaning & maintenance. I clean my two non-drain-back catch cans semi-regularly. It's an ok-but-annoying job but i'd hate to also have to unhook coolant lines (& deal with spillage, bubbles, etc), drain-to-sump lines, etc. Every "dirty side" hose looks like an artery full of cholesterol and the "clean side" hoses aren't perfect. Removing hoses from barbed fittings in tight places can be a knuckle-skinning exercise sometimes, etc.

Installing catch cans (non-heated, non-drain-back) in these engine bays is already an exercise in creativity & compromise to get locations of cans & hoses that are fairly workable and easily serviced. Heated & drain-back setups are obviously doable, just with more to deal with.

----

I'd also be interested to read any analysis of the "yellow water". My guess is it's predominantly water with some unburned fuel and some engine oil dissolved by the fuel.


Race car with dry sump, if allowed, removes most of the problem.
Race car with vent to atmo catch can, they have to be large capacity, usually the same CC as the engine (2L can for a 2L NA engine)
Race car with recirc to engine catch can is allowed to be as small as you like.

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 Post subject: Re: E85 - Engine Oil Compatibility
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 11:24 am 
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I Say: Plan for tomorrow,Live for TODAY!
Vehicle: MY12 XT

Posts: 84
Location: Sydney
More from Radium Technical Support:
Due to the heating, the water vapor does not condense in the catch can and stays in vapor form and gets cycled through the system.

If your engine is not generating a lot of oil in the PCV system, or just an average amount, then you are probably better served by a catch can setup.

If you are generating a lot of oil blow by, and you expect you would be filling the catch can frequently, or if you have a loosely built high-boost engine you do track days with, then an AOS might be a better choice.

---------------------------------------

The "loosely built" comment would be referring to more blow-by is my assumption.

All top of the range AOS's are heated and are focussed on only separating the oil, i.e. Perrin, Crawford and Radium.....

More considerations:
1) Climate - it appears that engine temperature has a lot to do with what is caught, the volume and the form it takes. Higher engine temps to vaporise water seems to be the way to go, otherwise sludge appears.
2) Driving Style - High sideways g-forces seem to blow splashed oil through the ventilation pipes - regardless of catch cans or AOS. More sideways would indicate a recycling method would be great to keep the oil levels in the engine, rather than in the cans.
3) Blow-by - Or high boost pressures - Low pressures are ok, but we are talking about Ozfozers here...... Considered this to possibly have a different decision for Fossil fuels and E85. Fossil fuels appear to have more contaminants (oil/fossil fuel) that can cause pre-detonation, whereas E85 appears to be more water vapour (and some E85), which is less likely to cause pre-detonation.

More thinking to be had ! Maybe both!

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Silver Fox !
VF-52 with Lava blanket, 11psi WG Spring, Company23 EBCS, 3" Mishimoto CAI, PSR Intake, Headers & Up-pipe Lava wrapped, Large TMIC, GFB BPV, Grimmspeed AOS, 3" TBE, F&R Whiteline HD Anti-Sway bars, DW65C, ID1050x inj, Exedy HD Clutch, DBA F&R T3s - Pmu NS400S, Short shifter,Pitch Stop Mount, KiddoRacing 18psi Tune for E85(FF Shifting & Launch Ctrl)-220kw atw


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