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 Post subject: Re: E85 - Engine Oil Compatibility
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:21 pm 
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Vehicle: MY08 XT (SH)

Posts: 1247
Location: Brisbane
I'll respectfully chip in the following opinions:-

1. Oil lab testing is cheap (eg $35ish) and tells you things that your eyes can't;

2. I'm suspicious of all "return something to sump" catch can type setups (including the Grimspeed AOS Oil Cap type) because of the amount of water and buttery cr@p that ends up in the catch can. In anything less than ideal conditions there is no way that, for a road car, all of that water, fuel and butter will hit the sump oil and 100% reliably separate back into:-

(a) steam & fuel vapour that escapes into the pre-turbo pipe (or the atmosphere if venting to atmosphere) during driving and then after shutdown; and

(b) good oil (from butter with all the air and water cooked out of it)

Things might be different for a race engine with the associated hotter oil and more intensive general maintenance regimen.

EDIT - pic of "Butter" from my catch can:-

Image

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Last edited by Yowie on Tue May 15, 2018 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: E85 - Engine Oil Compatibility
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:30 pm 
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Vehicle: Black My07 XT

Posts: 4539
Location: South East Melbourne
i agree with rowie about not draining it back in to theoil, the stuff i seen in some peoples build threads was enough to warrant a need for catch can (or 2)
heres an example
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=22552&p=930742&hilit=empty#p930742

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 Post subject: Re: E85 - Engine Oil Compatibility
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 12:05 pm 
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I Say: Plan for tomorrow,Live for TODAY!
Vehicle: MY12 XT

Posts: 94
Location: Sydney
Hi Fellow OzFoz's,

I have to partially agree with you, I prefer this to be a discussion, rather than an argument. As I have done quite a bit of research before my choice in AOS. Especially for what I use it for.......

The rationale for having the factory system was to catch the blow-by, dictated by the PCV valve which ONLY works in certain conditions to put it back through the system to be burnt.

In the case of factory system, it was not designed for huge amounts of blow-by, hence when upping the boost on modified cars, the std system can not cope. This of course is not good, as the excessive blow-by is passed back through the intake, this can cause pre-detonation, as well as fouling your intake system.

The AOS was born - there are two methods that are used, primarily catch cans - these have some pretty good capabilities, especially for racing conditions - I am referring to extremely high performance, not street racers - that is not being challenged here.

They will catch blow-by, depending on the quality of the AOS, if they are not water heated, they will also catch moisture. The unheated AOS will make the moisture condense, causing that milky look. Moisture is not a bad thing, as it is water vapour, that would get sucked back into the intake and can potentially aid combustion. The high performance AOS systems ARE water heated for that purpose.

Note - excessive moisture in oil is typically a sign of more sinister problems.

The so called crap blow-by that may get recycled, will be picked up by the oil filter - which is what it was designed for.

The Oil Cap AOS, is heated by default due to its placement, therefore any moisture found there again would be indicative of more serious issues, like a blown head gasket....

So for a street performance vehicle, the Grimmspeed Oil Cap AOS suits my usage needs.

Additionally, running E85 appears to produce less contaminants, easy to see from visual inspection, clear oil vs dark oil, which is now running at higher boost pressures. Also noting that the oil filters are a constant in both set-ups. I am now looking at getting the oil analysed, just to confirm everything is running in harmony.

@ Yowie - is your catch can water heated?

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 Post subject: Re: E85 - Engine Oil Compatibility
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:43 pm 
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I Say: Do or do not, there is no try.
Vehicle: MY17 BRZ, MY11 BT-50

Posts: 16233
Location: Medowie (near Newcastle), NSW
The only issue I really have with the AOS using the oil filler tube is that it is pointless for the cam cover breather lines, the LH bank in particular (on earlier models, I'm not 100% on later installs). If it was only for the crankcase (plumbed somehow before the T) it would be fine.

On my new car, E85 hasn't been an issue with blow by as there is very little, probably due to the engine being NA. The oil has been very dark (and smelly)when it is changed though.

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 Post subject: Re: E85 - Engine Oil Compatibility
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:16 pm 
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Vehicle: MY08 XT (SH)

Posts: 1247
Location: Brisbane
Interesting discussion. It's making me really think these things through. :thumbs:

Firstly - no, neither of my catch cans are heated and both are placed in relatively cool parts of the engine bay. As such, most of their contents by weight is water (although you wouldn't drink it...)

I'll add the following regarding your detailed comments:-

Condensation in top-mount intercooler

On E85 a lot of oily water vapour condenses in the intercooler. Being a top-mount it then trickles into the "pregnant bulge" in the throttle body hose (just before the throttle). Once there i expect that it does a combination of evaporating and entering the inlet manifold in gulps depending on how the car is being driven.

The guts of my TMIC is always pretty wet despite my catch cans and i'm not thrilled about it.

I think that forcing all of the non-PCV-valve water vapour into this "condense in intercooler" situation is worse than trying to catch a lot of water in cans if liquid water getting past the throttle body is seen as a bad thing. The lack of published hydro-lock catastrophes among E85 subaru owners indicates everyone is probably doing ok however.

Water, oil and E85

Burning E85 makes a lot of water vapour compared to petrol. Most goes out the exhaust but some goes past the rings into the crank case and gets us to the issue of dealing with it by factory crank breathing or modified.

Quote:
Note - excessive moisture in oil is typically a sign of more sinister problems.


Agreed. In my view it's best to not re-introduce water to the sump from the crank breather system if possible (i.e not a fan of drain-backs). Any extra water in the oil can hopefully be diagnosed without the crank breather setup being a major consideration.

Oil filters

Quote:
The so called crap blow-by that may get recycled, will be picked up by the oil filter - which is what it was designed for.


I think the effectiveness of oil filters is over-rated once you look into bypass valves etc. I also doubt that foamy non-particulate material would be caught in an oil filter.

I'm guessing here, but I would think the "foam/butter" probably floats on top of the sump oil (due to air content) until the water is boiled off by hot sump oil in ideal conditions. Hopefully the water doesn't sink to the bottom of the sump in a liquid state, but i suppose it could if the oil isn't hot.

Personally i don't like the idea of allowing funky extras into the sump and relying on the filter and/or heat to deal with it.

----

Having said all that, clearly these breather setup decisions are predominantly non-fatal to engines either way and it's interesting to read about different setups and philosophies behind them.

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 Post subject: Re: E85 - Engine Oil Compatibility
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:56 pm 
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Vehicle: MY08 XT (SH)

Posts: 1247
Location: Brisbane
To clarify Re the topic - water vapour in the crank case is a product of combustion, NOT just latent humidity getting trapped.

A hydrocarbon like petrol or ethanol has carbon and hydrogen atoms.

This reacts with oxygen atoms during burning to make:-

(a) carbon dioxide (CO2) with the carbon and hydrogen atoms; and

(b) water (H2O) with the hydrogen and oxygen atoms.

You can see the water vapour from combustion condense when your cold saucepan gets a brief condensation layer when you spark up the gas stove, when high-altitude planes leave vapour trails, when water drips from your exhaust tip for the first 5 mins after cold-start, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: E85 - Engine Oil Compatibility
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:33 am 
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I Say: Plan for tomorrow,Live for TODAY!
Vehicle: MY12 XT

Posts: 94
Location: Sydney
Hi Yowie,

It is a great discussion, more thought on my part as well.

You make some very valid points and observations, especially with what you are seeing in the intercooler - I have not had the opportunity to look inside mine since the E85, but is now on my list of things todo ! Much appreciated.

I think that the only contentious point you make is that breather systems can be fatal, our only problem is diagnosing whether they are the root cause of failures, as these typically happen in extreme conditions with many factors to consider.

I am referring to the intercooler contamination, with regular fuel and before AOS, I found exactly why the AOS was born- oil in the intake system and intercooler, very noticeable and present - as we all know this effects intercooler efficiency which we are all trying to get the best of, and potential pre-detonation with the presence of oil vapour.

I am now very interested to see inside my intercooler to see if the contaminants have change due to E85. It may be a few months to get to this as I am going away on a long break, without the Foz.....

I agree that reducing the intercooler contaminants in the intercooler is certainly the best option. At this point in time, I am unable to confirm that with my situation. Thinking hard though!

More thought - I would have thought that I would have seen some signs of moisture, either in the oil or filler cap of the AOS. I have added an extra filter in my AOS, some mesh in the slots that would help catch the contaminants before they get into the intake. I corresponded with Grimspeed, sending some mock up diagrams, to see why they have not done that as standard, their response was interesting.... They said that they wanted it to be maintenance free, they had considered it, but decided for commercial and maintenance reasons that they would not do it themselves.

I have a larger intercooler, with a Mishimoto throttle body hose, so the pregnant bulge does not existing that instance. I will inspect it for contaminants as well. Before the AOS, there was a oil film in the hose.

An Oil & filter change is due, so I will give more attention to the state of play.

Always good to be armed with knowledge !

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VF-52 with Lava blanket, 11psi WG Spring, Company23 EBCS, 3" Mishimoto CAI, PSR Intake, Ceramic Headers & UP Lava wrapped, Ceramic DP, Large TMIC, GFB BOV, Grimmspeed AOS, 3" TBE, F&R Whiteline HD Anti-Sway bars, DW65C, ID1050x, Exedy HD Clutch, DBA F&R T3s - Pmu NS400S, Short shifter,Pitch Stop Mount, KiddoRacing 18psi Tune for E85(FF Shifting & Launch Ctrl)-220kw atw


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 Post subject: Re: E85 - Engine Oil Compatibility
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:33 am 
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I Say: Plan for tomorrow,Live for TODAY!
Vehicle: MY12 XT

Posts: 94
Location: Sydney
Hi Yowie,

It is a great discussion, more thought on my part as well.

You make some very valid points and observations, especially with what you are seeing in the intercooler - I have not had the opportunity to look inside mine since the E85, but is now on my list of things todo ! Much appreciated.

I think that the only contentious point you make is that breather systems can be fatal, our only problem is diagnosing whether they are the root cause of failures, as these typically happen in extreme conditions with many factors to consider.

I am referring to the intercooler contamination, with regular fuel and before AOS, I found exactly why the AOS was born- oil in the intake system and intercooler, very noticeable and present - as we all know this effects intercooler efficiency which we are all trying to get the best of, and potential pre-detonation with the presence of oil vapour.

I am now very interested to see inside my intercooler to see if the contaminants have change due to E85. It may be a few months to get to this as I am going away on a long break, without the Foz.....

I agree that reducing the intercooler contaminants in the intercooler is certainly the best option. At this point in time, I am unable to confirm that with my situation. Thinking hard though!

More thought - I would have thought that I would have seen some signs of moisture, either in the oil or filler cap of the AOS. I have added an extra filter in my AOS, some mesh in the slots that would help catch the contaminants before they get into the intake. I corresponded with Grimspeed, sending some mock up diagrams, to see why they have not done that as standard, their response was interesting.... They said that they wanted it to be maintenance free, they had considered it, but decided for commercial and maintenance reasons that they would not do it themselves.

I have a larger intercooler, with a Mishimoto throttle body hose, so the pregnant bulge does not existing that instance. I will inspect it for contaminants as well. Before the AOS, there was a oil film in the hose.

An Oil & filter change is due, so I will give more attention to the state of play.

Always good to be armed with knowledge !

_________________
Silver Fox !
VF-52 with Lava blanket, 11psi WG Spring, Company23 EBCS, 3" Mishimoto CAI, PSR Intake, Ceramic Headers & UP Lava wrapped, Ceramic DP, Large TMIC, GFB BOV, Grimmspeed AOS, 3" TBE, F&R Whiteline HD Anti-Sway bars, DW65C, ID1050x, Exedy HD Clutch, DBA F&R T3s - Pmu NS400S, Short shifter,Pitch Stop Mount, KiddoRacing 18psi Tune for E85(FF Shifting & Launch Ctrl)-220kw atw


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 Post subject: Re: E85 - Engine Oil Compatibility
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 2:15 pm 
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I Say: There's no 'i' in Team, but there is in Winner!
Vehicle: MY10 XT

Posts: 1761
Location: Mealbun Orstraya
You may have already seen it, here is my custom pregnant bulge to go between the silicon hose before the throttle.. with site glass and lighting so there is no need to unbolt it. The catchment is a bored out bolt so I can unscrew it if it starts filling up..

Image


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 Post subject: Re: E85 - Engine Oil Compatibility
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 2:51 pm 
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Vehicle: MY08 XT (SH)

Posts: 1247
Location: Brisbane
Tobyo - for the sake of all your trouble & craftsmanship I hope it's not just my car/setup that puts a lot of fluid into the intercooler :shock:

Great looking piece of kit as usual :thumbs:

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