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 Post subject: SH Auto with VF46 - PULP vs E85
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 9:28 pm 
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Vehicle: MY08 XT (SH)

Posts: 978
Location: Brisbane
Car: SH Forester XY 4-speed auto
Year model: 2008
Engine/performance mod list:

VF46 turbo (with mild porting)
X-force dump pipe & custom "sporty/quiet" cat-back section
3-port boost controller
OEM intercooler
OEM airbox
silicone SFB pipe
silicone turbo inlet pipe
Walbro 255 fuel pump
Xspurt 1000cc injectors

Dyno: Coyote Tuning at Albion (Brisbane)
Type: Mainline adrenaline, Gaza to Tienanmen
Gear: unknown

Dyno graph:

Image

Obviously petrol is the blue line and E85 is the red line.

Take anything below 4000rpm (including that big dip) with a big grain of salt. Apparently the 4-speed Auto gearbox was slipping & flaring until it got its act together to hold true for the top section.

Performance on the road is much better on account of the fact that the Dyno is a much harder load. It is definitely a "torque monster".

The engine is capable of more (eg running more boost) but the 4-speed auto gearbox is the limiting factor at this point. Boost is predominantly 16psi (tapering off towards the redline) for both the petrol and E85 curves.

A 20% increase in power across the whole (relevant) rev-range just by switching fuels and making the associated tuning changes strikes me as completely remarkable. If E85 is available locally to you it seems to be the best bang-for-your-buck performance increase (perhaps on par with a cheap 2nd-hand turbo).

A bigger turbo might shift the power/torque band upward a bit in the rev range (noting that "torque kills gearboxes, not necessarily power") but would probably not be worth the cost/effort for me.

Having said that, with the responsiveness the E85 brings, I would expect a VF52 on E85 to have not much "lag" to speak of, have a bigger top-end power number and perhaps go a bit easier on the transmission.

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 Post subject: Re: SH Auto with VF46 - PULP vs E85
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 11:14 am 
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Vehicle: MY10 XT

Posts: 22
Location: Melbs
Yowie wrote:
Car: SH Forester XY 4-speed auto
Year model: 2008
Engine/performance mod list:

VF46 turbo (with mild porting)
X-force dump pipe & custom "sporty/quiet" cat-back section
3-port boost controller
OEM intercooler
OEM airbox
silicone SFB pipe
silicone turbo inlet pipe
Walbro 255 fuel pump
Xspurt 1000cc injectors

Dyno: Coyote Tuning at Albion (Brisbane)
Type: Mainline adrenaline, Gaza to Tienanmen
Gear: unknown

Dyno graph:

Image

Obviously petrol is the blue line and E85 is the red line.

Take anything below 4000rpm (including that big dip) with a big grain of salt. Apparently the 4-speed Auto gearbox was slipping & flaring until it got its act together to hold true for the top section.

Performance on the road is much better on account of the fact that the Dyno is a much harder load. It is definitely a "torque monster".

The engine is capable of more (eg running more boost) but the 4-speed auto gearbox is the limiting factor at this point. Boost is predominantly 16psi (tapering off towards the redline) for both the petrol and E85 curves.

A 20% increase in power across the whole (relevant) rev-range just by switching fuels and making the associated tuning changes strikes me as completely remarkable. If E85 is available locally to you it seems to be the best bang-for-your-buck performance increase (perhaps on par with a cheap 2nd-hand turbo).

A bigger turbo might shift the power/torque band upward a bit in the rev range (noting that "torque kills gearboxes, not necessarily power") but would probably not be worth the cost/effort for me.

Having said that, with the responsiveness the E85 brings, I would expect a VF52 on E85 to have not much "lag" to speak of, have a bigger top-end power number and perhaps go a bit easier on the transmission.


What ecu are you running? I have been tossing up going either a vf46 or a vf52. I have a petrol station at the end of my street that sells e85 so getting that is not an issue but I also do some pretty long drives that have me well away from the nearest e85.

I'd be happy as a pig in the proverbial with a car capable of 180KW with a tank of the secret sauce.


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 Post subject: Re: SH Auto with VF46 - PULP vs E85
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 11:51 am 
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Vehicle: MY08 XT (SH)

Posts: 978
Location: Brisbane
Subaru factory ECU.

No flex-fuel setup for me, so you'd need to do your own research on the cost/practicality of that option.

I understand that with a Subaru ECU you could "flash" a petrol tune back on it for a Chevy Chase style road trip, then "flash" the E85 tune back on when you got home and filled up with Jungle Juice again. I think you just need a Tactrix cable and a laptop with Romraider software (but I can't personally confirm).

Jerry can/s are a simpler option for medium trips.

As between the VF46 and VF52, i've never driven with a VF52 (petrol or E85) so all comments below after the second one are speculation:-

1. I'm a big fan of the VF46 on the road (petrol) for the responsiveness;

2. VF46 tends to be acquired more cheaply than a VF52;

3. if the delayed power hit of the 52 is giving you second thoughts, I suspect that E85 would cover that "torque hole" just fine

4. If E85 is on the agenda your main choices probably come down to:-

(i) cost of turbo;

(ii) the responsiveness vs top-end power you want for the amount of time that it's on petrol (which may be a very minor consideration)

(iii) whether you want the mayhem to kick in "instantly" (46) or presumably "almost instantly" (52)

(iv) top-end power number (presumably higher on the 52).

5. There might be greater "normal driving" fuel economy with a 52 on account of the exhaust getting to escape through a less restrictive turbo?

I note from other comparative dyno charts (petrol) that the midrange for a 46 and 52 are almost identical. The differences are in the 2000-3000 revs bracket (46 wins) and in the 5500-6500 bracket (52 wins).

It would be very interesting to hear from someone with a VF52 and E85 so see if any of these theories have merit.

From where I'm sitting now I think either the 46 or 52 option on E85 would be fine and a lot of fun.

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 Post subject: Re: SH Auto with VF46 - PULP vs E85
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 8:56 am 
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I Say: Mum, when I grow up, I want to be a pilot! Sorry son, you can't do both!! :D
Vehicle: MY05 XT Luxury AT, white

Posts: 1813
Location: Wynnum West, QLD
Re: 4EAT on a dyno

The 4EAT has the 'Hold' function: I was wondering if anyone had ever put the gear selector in '2', select the 'Hold' button on, then do a 2nd gear pull on the dyno (no gearbox glitches)?

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 Post subject: Re: SH Auto with VF46 - PULP vs E85
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 8:57 pm 
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Vehicle: MY08 XT (SH)

Posts: 978
Location: Brisbane
I wasn't there for the dyno run, but I think it's not so much a "selecting the gear" issue as an issue with the torque converter slipping.

I'll embarrass myself by revealing my ignorance of auto gearboxes below... :oops:

The torque converter is a fluid (rather than mechanical) linkage that slips in the early part of the launch even for a non-tuned car. The up-side is that you can build up energy like a slingshot. The down-sides include power wasted in heating up & slushing around fluid and (as we've discovered on the dyno) an inability to get a realistic graph of lower-revs torque & power. This will all be true even if (eg) 2nd gear is selected from the driver's seat.

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 Post subject: Re: SH Auto with VF46 - PULP vs E85
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 10:49 pm 
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Vehicle: GEN V Liberty GT

Posts: 68
Location: Canberra
Thats a very nice gain, really got to appreciate E85.

About the 4eat slipping, I know this is probably already been taken care of in your tune but here is a good read:
http://forum.liberty.asn.au/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=21405

I know when Matt tuned my previous subaru with a 4eat he really made a noticeable change in the way the 4eat responded.

I'm now working on implementing this in my own tune for my 5eat.

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 Post subject: Re: SH Auto with VF46 - PULP vs E85
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 11:23 am 
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I Say: Mum, when I grow up, I want to be a pilot! Sorry son, you can't do both!! :D
Vehicle: MY05 XT Luxury AT, white

Posts: 1813
Location: Wynnum West, QLD
I concur with your comments.

Maybe it was the the Muppet at Mercury Motorsport who can't run his own dyno? When we went for the dyno day, he kept complaining about it shifting (not the slipping).

Matt's tweaked my gearboxes behaviour too. Interesting to see the differences, such as how it holds boost on gear change, changing shift points, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: SH Auto with VF46 - PULP vs E85
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 7:57 pm 
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I Say: I have CDO. It's like OCD except the letters are in alphabetical order, as they should be.
Vehicle: MY05 XTL - Black

Posts: 5066
Location: Tanah Merah - Brisbane
My 4eat was fine on the dyno. Go figure.

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Previous Ride - Your mum ;)

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 Post subject: Re: SH Auto with VF46 - PULP vs E85
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:15 pm 
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I Say: Mum, when I grow up, I want to be a pilot! Sorry son, you can't do both!! :D
Vehicle: MY05 XT Luxury AT, white

Posts: 1813
Location: Wynnum West, QLD
Tremayne_XT wrote:
My 4eat was fine on the dyno. Go figure.


That day we were at Mercury, I reckon Trent was screwing-around with my car, because he knew who my car's tuner is?!! :evil: ... plus, they were trying to drum-up business, telling everyone that they had the same issue. Turned out, in the ensuing months, their dyno needed recalibrating, so of course, all our cars had 'bad' tunes.

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 Post subject: Re: SH Auto with VF46 - PULP vs E85
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 5:11 pm 
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I Say: Plan for tomorrow,Live for TODAY!
Vehicle: MY12 XT

Posts: 71
Location: Sydney
Yowie wrote:
Subaru factory ECU.

No flex-fuel setup for me, so you'd need to do your own research on the cost/practicality of that option.

I understand that with a Subaru ECU you could "flash" a petrol tune back on it for a Chevy Chase style road trip, then "flash" the E85 tune back on when you got home and filled up with Jungle Juice again. I think you just need a Tactrix cable and a laptop with Romraider software (but I can't personally confirm).

Jerry can/s are a simpler option for medium trips.

As between the VF46 and VF52, i've never driven with a VF52 (petrol or E85) so all comments below after the second one are speculation:-

1. I'm a big fan of the VF46 on the road (petrol) for the responsiveness;

2. VF46 tends to be acquired more cheaply than a VF52;

3. if the delayed power hit of the 52 is giving you second thoughts, I suspect that E85 would cover that "torque hole" just fine

4. If E85 is on the agenda your main choices probably come down to:-

(i) cost of turbo;

(ii) the responsiveness vs top-end power you want for the amount of time that it's on petrol (which may be a very minor consideration)

(iii) whether you want the mayhem to kick in "instantly" (46) or presumably "almost instantly" (52)

(iv) top-end power number (presumably higher on the 52).

5. There might be greater "normal driving" fuel economy with a 52 on account of the exhaust getting to escape through a less restrictive turbo?

I note from other comparative dyno charts (petrol) that the midrange for a 46 and 52 are almost identical. The differences are in the 2000-3000 revs bracket (46 wins) and in the 5500-6500 bracket (52 wins).

It would be very interesting to hear from someone with a VF52 and E85 so see if any of these theories have merit.

From where I'm sitting now I think either the 46 or 52 option on E85 would be fine and a lot of fun.


I can confirm that a VF52 on E85 is lots of fun. I have had the setup for a few months, very very quick. Estimated 220-240kw atw. up from 200kw atw with 98.
18psi - you need an aftermarket TMIC to handle the psi safely. Boost kicks in at 2500RPM - Fully boosted at 3000RPM - that is going to be improved with and 11blade billet CHRA in the next few months, expecting to hit full boost at 2500RPM if the marketing material is anywhere close.

https://www.turborebuild.co.uk/webshop/ ... arger.html

It does not give you anymore power, it just comes on quicker - more available power under the curve !

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VF-52 with Lava blanket, 11psi WG Spring, Company23 EBCS, 3" Mishimoto CAI, PSR Intake, Headers & Up-pipe Lava wrapped, Large TMIC, GFB BPV, Grimmspeed AOS, 3" TBE, F&R Whiteline HD Anti-Sway bars, DW65C, ID1050x inj, Exedy HD Clutch, DBA F&R T3s - Pmu NS400S, Short shifter,Pitch Stop Mount, KiddoRacing 18psi Tune for E85(FF Shifting & Launch Ctrl)-220kw atw


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