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 Post subject: Re: Yowie's SH turbo
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:23 pm 
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Vehicle: 2008 MY09 F XTP

Posts: 181
Location: Melbourne
Hey Yowie,

Which catch can would you say fills up quicker? The one from the valve covers or the one from the crank case vent?


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 Post subject: Re: Yowie's SH turbo
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:35 pm 
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Vehicle: MY08 XT (SH)

Posts: 1321
Location: Brisbane
On petrol - hardly any action in the valve cover catch can.

On E85 - consistently more fluid by volume in the valve cover catch can. It tends to be mostly water vapour (and hardly any sludge) in the valve cover can. Much more in winter with all the extra condensation.

The crank case catch can is pretty consistent in terms of volume of water vapour and sludge/butter collected. Usually more sludge (compared to water) for the first n000 kms after an oil change. My theory is that certain lighter molecules in the oil are more prone to escape through the breather setup in the early days, then they have predominantly gone by the 5000km oil change mark.

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 Post subject: Re: Yowie's SH turbo
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:49 pm 
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I Say: I JUST WANT QUICKER SPOOL UP WITH MORE TOP END
Vehicle: MY09 SH Forester XT Premium

Posts: 29
Location: Sydney
Yowie wrote:
Tobyo wrote:
I wonder if there is a restrictor in the later model F piece from the crank?


The later model rubber "F piece" has two restrictions:-

(a) straight up out of the crank (see second pic below); and

(b) again in the part that leads to the hose-to-turbo after the hose-to-PVC branches off

This shows that Subaru like to have:-

(i) a restriction between crank and PCV

(ii) a restriction between turbo and PCV; and

(iii) two restrictions between crank and turbo.

My current thinking is that the catch can and filter (between crank and T-piece) already offer one restriction (not that i'll admit to blowing or sucking on a piece of hose, *ahem*) but i should add a restriction between T-piece and turbo inlet.

There are other theories floating around regarding the point-of-restriction offering some special venture-type-effects on velocity and pressure, which then affect catch can "oil dump" behaviour (etc). Unless/until i get my head around that line of thinking i'll probably just put my extra restriction in an accessible place close to the T-piece.

Image

Image


Hey mate..Did that PCV F piece become superseded by the later model item that has the white plug going to the PCV valve?

My F piece broke today and I'm searching for a new one. If it's too hard or expensive. I'll FAB one up. (with a restriction)

Cheers

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Internally Stock EJ255, VF34 Turbo, Motec 500HP internal fuel pump, Hyper-flow TMIC, Full set of lightweight under drive GFB pullys, 3" TBE, GFB recirc valve, GrimmSpeed AOS, Baffled Catch Can, CAI, MAF Pipe, Turbo blanket, Auto Trans-cooler, ECUTEK tune, F & R Gen5 GT brakes, SS lines, master cylinder brace.. (Power? No idea, it's fun though)


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 Post subject: Re: Yowie's SH turbo
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:14 pm 
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Vehicle: MY08 XT (SH)

Posts: 1321
Location: Brisbane
Quote:
Hey mate..Did that PCV F piece become superseded by the later model item that has the white plug going to the PCV valve?


I've only seen and handled the 2008 "black plastic T-piece" PCV setup and the mid 2009 "black rubber F-piece" setup pictured. I wouldn't know if they have been changed again since late 2009.

I don't know what you mean by a white plug going to the PCV valve. Everything i've seen (those two versions) has a rubber hose joining the PCV that is screwed into the inlet manifold.

Quote:
My F piece broke today and I'm searching for a new one. If it's too hard or expensive. I'll FAB one up. (with a restriction)


See my ghetto-spec temporary solution to a broken F-piece here:-

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15305&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=14260

The black 13mm barbed joiners (and reducing adapter) are from the bunnings sprinkler isle.

The blue 19mm elbow was from Autobarn or similar. The hoses are various heater and fuel hoses (straight, the way Izzy Folau likes it).

You wont need a deliberate restriction in the short term while you wait for the right bits to arrive (OEM or your own catch can setup).

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 Post subject: Re: Yowie's SH turbo
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:33 pm 
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I Say: I JUST WANT QUICKER SPOOL UP WITH MORE TOP END
Vehicle: MY09 SH Forester XT Premium

Posts: 29
Location: Sydney
[/quote]

See my ghetto-spec temporary solution to a broken F-piece here:-

http://ozfoz.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php ... tart=14260

The black 13mm barbed joiners (and reducing adapter) are from the bunnings sprinkler isle.

The blue 19mm elbow was from Autobarn or similar. The hoses are various heater and fuel hoses (straight, the way Izzy Folau likes it).

You wont need a deliberate restriction in the short term while you wait for the right bits to arrive (OEM or your own catch can setup).[/quote]

HAHA I like it!!
Bummer the photos don't work on that old link for some reason.. It's just my day. Nothing F'en works. The unit upstairs water heater burst flooding me underneath, my new silicon inlet didn't line up with the turbo. (waste of 2 hours) then I broke the F'en F F'en piece!!!

I don't suppose you have the part number of the F piece, or did you order it from Subaru?

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Internally Stock EJ255, VF34 Turbo, Motec 500HP internal fuel pump, Hyper-flow TMIC, Full set of lightweight under drive GFB pullys, 3" TBE, GFB recirc valve, GrimmSpeed AOS, Baffled Catch Can, CAI, MAF Pipe, Turbo blanket, Auto Trans-cooler, ECUTEK tune, F & R Gen5 GT brakes, SS lines, master cylinder brace.. (Power? No idea, it's fun though)


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 Post subject: Re: Yowie's SH turbo
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:22 am 
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Vehicle: MY08 XT (SH)

Posts: 1321
Location: Brisbane
You know you're getting into a Qld winter when you need to wear thongs to protect against the cold ground, long pants become practical around the house and the catch cans fill up like this (about 2-3 weeks worth):-

Image

Image

The crank case "cream" is on the left and the valve cover breathers "yellow water" is on the right.

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 Post subject: Re: Yowie's SH turbo
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:50 am 
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Vehicle: MY08 XT (SH)

Posts: 1321
Location: Brisbane
The "predominantly yellow water" contents of the valve cover breathers catch can doesn't mean that end of the breather setup is free of "scum" issues. When I took off the valve cover breathers catch can for cleaning some "scum" was evident in the can and the "dirty side" hose leading to it. From memory the "clean" side hose was a lot better (but not perfectly clean). The hoses were a b*gger to install originally (running parallel to the turbo intake pipe) so I wasn't going to remove them for cleaning on this day.

Image

The undersides of the cut-off bolts (pictured) I was using to block unneeded holes were very corroded underneath, so I replaced them with stainless bolts. Perhaps Tobyo and Bram are onto something with their use of stainless.

Image

The valve cover breathers catch can back in position next to the radiator and under the OEM air snorkel:-

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Yowie's SH turbo
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:01 am 
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Vehicle: MY08 XT (SH)

Posts: 1321
Location: Brisbane
All this catch can maintenance was triggered by wanting to change the air filter and clean the MAF sensor in anticipation of a Throttle Happy road tune (more on that shortly).

The dirtiness of the air filter can sneak up on you. I had forgotten that the standard Ryco filter colour was white not grey.

Image

That was 21,000kms over 1.5 years of predominantly daily commuting.

Image

I've saved the old filter to swap-in next time I do a dirt track day.

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 Post subject: Re: Yowie's SH turbo
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:53 am 
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Vehicle: MY10 XT -

Posts: 309
Location: Brisbane
Crap! you wouldn't think at just 21,000 km it would be that clogged. I will make a note of that and replace at earlier intervals.
Oh, good idea where you wrote the date on the filter, I never gave that a thought :)


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 Post subject: Re: Yowie's SH turbo
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:24 am 
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Vehicle: MY08 XT (SH)

Posts: 1321
Location: Brisbane
ThrottleHappy Road Tune 15 May 2018

Covering notes

1. Reminder of relevant mods; VF46 turbo, 4-speed Auto (rebuilt); 1000cc injectors, E85 fuel (non-flex-fuel), 3-port boost controller.

2. Previous tune; dyno tune to 180kw @ 16psi on a slipping (pre-rebuild) gearbox.

3. I don't have any graphs or tables to upload with this post, so "text only" for the moment will probably tax our internet-conditioned short attention spans. I might have graphs & tables later.

4. I am not a tuner so my recollections and summaries in this post may be inaccurate.


Road Tune generally

I was happy with the previous dyno tune but was intrigued about bits & pieces I'd read about what Matt (ThrottleHappy) can do with tuning a gearbox to handle more torque and getting better fuel economy on E85.

We caught up when Matt was in Brisbane on 15 May.


Gearbox

As described much better here [ http://forum.liberty.asn.au/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=21405 ], Matt changed the gearbox & related settings so that 1st gear ("the strongest gear") has full boost and has the torque converter lock-up much earlier.

In OEM form, the torque converter slips for much longer on launch then engages part way through the rev range (in 1st), usually indicated by the traction control light coming on during a hard launch. Obviously this is far from ideal in terms of heat, wear and total launch speed.

On the road (post-TH-tune) the gearbox feels very strong with positive engagement. There is probably a slight loss of gear-change smoothness as the gearbox forgoes a "luxury car style" squishy & drawn-out gear change in favour of a positive and immediate gear change. To a performance car enthusiast this is not a problem at all.


Fuel Economy

According to Matt my previous E85 fuel economy would have been 20L/100kms (predominantly urban commuting and urban free-flowing-traffic driving). My on-dash display wasn't calibrated for the bigger injectors and I never did the maths (couldn't bear to know the horror).

Now (post-TH-tune) It's 16L/100kms and my on-dash display is calibrated for the bigger injectors. A side-effect of correct calibration is that the Torque Pro app "instantaneous fuel readout" is the actual cc/min of fuel being consumed, not a scaled impression of that.

The fuel saving is noticeable. Commuting this week (5 days) consumed half a tank. Usually the half way mark would have been reached before Friday and I would have topped up with a jerry can by now.

The driving/tune differences that seem to have caused the fuel saving seem to be Matt changing the throttle, gear-change and other settings so that the car is now MUCH more willing to cruise around at very low revs and high gear compared to its previous preference to down-shift. Eg, the car will potter around at 1200ish revs in 4th gear if it's not being asked to accelerate. It reminds me of driving around my old torquey manual 3.8litre Commodore (with extractors & tune) at very low revs and high gear.

The literature on fuel economy talks about the fuel savings to be had with "large throttle angle, low revs, high gear" due to minimising pumping losses. See http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.ht ... 1&A=113297 .

The most "extreme" example I have observed is a hilly section where the car:-

(i) had limited throttle-pedal input from me;

(ii) was in 4th gear and low revs (sub 1400);

(iii) was at 0-4psi boost as opposed to manifold in vacuum; and

(iv) had the "throttle angle at manifold" display on the Torque Pro App [b]varying to up to 40% throttle[/b] (for context, 80% is the maximum throttle angle ever observed, even when "flat to the floor")

On my understanding, factory automatic gearbox cars don't tend to be set up to optimise this due to:-

(a) risk of knocking;

(b) higher emissions in the (smaller amount of) exhaust gas due to the combustion being quite "high stress" and more likely to produce oxides of nitrogen;

(c) the general "sluggish" feel of the car when cruising at very low revs.

(a) is definitely less of an issue on E85. (b) may be less of an issue on E85 [I've read bits & pieces on less oxides of nitrogen on E85, but nothing on this specific "high stress economy combustion" yet]. (c) doesn't bother me because the engine comes back to life when you want it to.

Matt also pulled some fuel out of the full-load map (from the dyno tune).


Throttle map

Matt showed me a 3D graph of the still-loaded OEM throttle map (exponential increase with internal inconsistencies) then his standard throttle map (exponential increase, perhaps slightly more aggressive, with internal smoothness).

Matt uploaded his throttle map. Presumably it is part of the package to achieve the economical cruising described above.

The car is definitely more "twitchy" now, so over the last few weeks I've had to learn a much gentler foot for normal driving - predominantly successfully.

My only issue (and something Matt & I will revisit on his next trip to Brisbane) is that the car is currently very prone to "burst out" into high throttle angle and boost when it changes down gears. This causes the driver to immediately back off the throttle to keep the car and engine speed under control. Manual gear selection isn't a full solution because in any lower gear the car is very twitchy.

For example, maximum throttle (80%) has been displayed on Torque Pro after a stint of attempted-normal driving with the throttle pedal having gone nowhere near the floor.

It reminds me of what has been written about the first affordable turbo cars of the 80s, where the non-linear nature of a turbo engine's power response was predominantly not properly addressed by the turbo sizing, ECU mapping, cable-driven throttles etc of the day.

It also reminds me of why turbos are not very common on motorcycles. A rider would not want the non-linear nature of the power curve throwing him/her off the bike part way around a sweeping corner.

On the next re-tune I'll seek greater resolution and control over the full range of throttle pedal travel, even if that means dialling-in a deliberately slower boost response and throttle response. Hopefully this can be done without sacrificing the fuel economy gains described above.

The comments in this "throttle map" section are very much a personal taste thing, informed by the fact that this is a daily-driven car and the need to preserve my licence points. Many people would be very happy with such a "lively car".

EDIT - see 5 June update. Twitchy behaviour probably exacerbated by a leaky boost reference vacuum line off the compressor housing.

Power at full noise

With some fuel trimmed out of the "full throttle" map (and a post-rebuild non-slipping gearbox) Matt estimates that the car probably has about 200kw at the wheels now. Matt mentions another customer with a similar setup (but OEM injectors capping maximum power) who recorded close to 200kw on the same dyno where my 180kw was recorded.

I'll post a "virtual dyno" graph when I get it.


Other thoughts

The reduced fuel usage (generally and at full-noise) probably helps keep the oil and cylinder walls in better condition. I.e slightly less excess fuel washing oil off the bore walls and getting into the sump.

I've also been a vocal advocate of the "small/medium" VF46 turbo for many years in terms of responsiveness for a road-driven car, especially on petrol.

Now, on E85 and with a hyper-responsive tune, I'm more open-minded about a larger turbo (eg the medium-sized VF52). Eg the general driving response could drop back to merely "responsive" and save full power for north-of-3000RPM when the driver deliberately wants a lot of power to kick in.

Noting that, currently, 0-4psi boost is achieved during "very low revs" economical cruise, hopefully the fuel economy could be maintained in some form with a larger turbo.

Lack of funds means i wont be upgrading turbos any time soon of course.

---

Thanks for your patience with this text-heavy post.

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Last edited by Yowie on Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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