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 Post subject: Re: Yowie's SH turbo
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:56 am 
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I Say: There's no 'i' in Team, but there is in Winner!
Vehicle: MY10 XT

Posts: 1744
Location: Mealbun Orstraya
Thats a very well researched and detailed novel


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 Post subject: Re: Yowie's SH turbo
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:15 pm 
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Vehicle: MY11 S-Edition - SWP

Posts: 1061
Location: Sydney
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the tune.

I have had both a dyno tune and a TH tune and agree with your evaluation. Especially the part "My only issue (and something Matt & I will revisit on his next trip to Brisbane) is that the car is currently very prone to "burst out" into high throttle angle and boost when it changes down gears. This causes the driver to immediately back off the throttle to keep the car and engine speed under control. Manual gear selection isn't a full solution because in any lower gear the car is very twitchy." I have the same issue and want it tuned out for better daily driving. Yet to speak with Matt.

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 Post subject: Re: Yowie's SH turbo
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:36 am 
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Vehicle: MY08 XT (SH)

Posts: 1203
Location: Brisbane
jonp wrote:
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the tune.

I have had both a dyno tune and a TH tune and agree with your evaluation. Especially the part "My only issue (and something Matt & I will revisit on his next trip to Brisbane) is that the car is currently very prone to "burst out" into high throttle angle and boost when it changes down gears. This causes the driver to immediately back off the throttle to keep the car and engine speed under control. Manual gear selection isn't a full solution because in any lower gear the car is very twitchy." I have the same issue and want it tuned out for better daily driving. Yet to speak with Matt.


I'll do a picture-heavy update later this week, but for the moment I need to give an update in the interest of fairness.

After writing "War and Peace" I discovered and rectified a probable leak in the boost reference vacuum line that runs from the compressor housing to the 3-port boost controller. The rubber vacuum line had swollen with oil contamination and was no longer a good seal on the compressor nipple.

Since replacing that vacuum line the car has been much more controllable in terms of boost spiking up etc (which makes sense when you think about the 3-port applying [or trying to apply] a measured amount of boost to the top of the wastegate diaphragm).

I'll drive the car a bit more before coming to some fresh conclusions about what throttle map tinkering (if any) I might still want.

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 Post subject: Re: Yowie's SH turbo
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:38 pm 
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Vehicle: MY08 XT (SH)

Posts: 1203
Location: Brisbane
Pictured below is the swollen and no-longer-sealing vacuum line off the boost reference nipple on the compressor housing. It seems to have swollen from contact with oil (presumably ingested by the turbo from the "clean air" outlets of the catch cans). The small (OEM?) constant-tension hose clamp was merely decorative once the hose started swelling. The small oil mess in the surrounding area can also be seen:-

Image

I had some khaki-coloured spare vacuum tube on hand (of a larger outside diameter) to replace the compromised vacuum hose using the old "tape them together then pull it through" trick:-

Image

Image

The replacement hoses were then attached to the boost reference and wastegate nipples and secured with zip-ties (since the constant-tension hose clamps were too small for the larger OD vacuum hoses).

Image

The other ends could then go onto the corresponding 3-port boost controller nipples. It's useful to mark which hose is intended for where!

Image

I replaced both the compressor-side and wastegate-side hoses to be sure. The third hose off the 3-port (right-hand-side of picture) just vents to atmosphere and is just tucked out of sight, so I wasn't worried about that "leaking".

----

As discussed above, this issue was causing the boost to spike much quicker and make the car very annoying to drive. I hadn't been giving the car "full beans" that often of late and the (slightly unreliable) maximum-boost markers on the Torque Pro app showed slightly higher than the target 16psi boost (which is normalish). As such, I probably didn't have a catastrophic overboost issue.

I'll certainly be adding "turbo vacuum lines" to my mental list of checks for when the engine cover is off.

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 Post subject: Re: Yowie's SH turbo
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:07 am 
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Vehicle: MY09 XTP & MY16 BT50

Posts: 2454
Location: S.E. Melbourne
Great work Yowie on finding the cause, and the detailed steps! :thumbs:


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 Post subject: Re: Yowie's SH turbo
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:51 am 
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Vehicle: MY11 S-Edition - SWP

Posts: 1061
Location: Sydney
Glad it is fixed. Keen to hear it you still have the boosting issue, just not as strong.

The OCD part of me would be ordering black vacuum hose to make it consistent with all the other hoses :)

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 Post subject: Re: Yowie's SH turbo
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:50 am 
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Vehicle: MY08 XT (SH)

Posts: 1203
Location: Brisbane
Cheers gents.

Quote:
Keen to hear it you still have the boosting issue, just not as strong.


The boost and throttle control is much more "normal" and drivable now.

Matt (ThrottleHappy) predicted/confirmed that the boost-control will self-correct and the leaky hose "would have caused higher boost levels".

Matt's throttle map is still more eager than the OEM throttle map, but the "controllable version" (with no boost leaks to the 3-port) is very much growing on me and i might end up leaving it alone.

Quote:
The OCD part of me would be ordering black vacuum hose to make it consistent with all the other hoses


Yeah, plus preserving the sleeper-looking engine bay thing, but it's the roll of vacuum line I had to hand at the time. At least the new khaki stuff shows up better in the photos.

Conversely, my inner ricer is now tempted to get different bright coloured silicone hoses for each of the two lines...

https://www.carmodsaustralia.com.au/sil ... 100cm.html

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 Post subject: Re: Yowie's SH turbo
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:23 am 
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I Say: There's no 'i' in Team, but there is in Winner!
Vehicle: MY10 XT

Posts: 1744
Location: Mealbun Orstraya
My PCD (perfection compulsive disorder) demanded that I use the Turbosmart thick walled silicon vacuum line. Minimum order was 3m. I needed 3mm,4mm and 6mm internal diameter. As you can guess, I have 8.4m left over. More than happy to send you the lengths of what you require.
:drinks:


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 Post subject: Re: Yowie's SH turbo
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:02 pm 
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Vehicle: MY10 XT -

Posts: 306
Location: Brisbane
Hey mate,
Good to hear that you are happy with Mat's tune. How do you find the gear changes now? Something you could get use to? I myself absolutely love it, but that's me :D . Its definitely good to know that when tuning for more power that Mat can tune the 4eat aswell to help handle the extra power(peace of mind).
Once Mat tuned mine ,it was like driving a completely different car, the accelerator was something I definitely had to get use to, you only had to touch it and it wanted to take off. After going for a few drives and teaching myself to be a bit more gentle with my right foot :lol: , I couldn't be happier :D.
Great to hear that you can get through the week now without having to have to top up, must be pretty happy about that.


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 Post subject: Re: Yowie's SH turbo
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:12 pm 
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Vehicle: MY08 XT (SH)

Posts: 1203
Location: Brisbane
MTBTRAIL wrote:
Hey mate,
Good to hear that you are happy with Mat's tune.
[1] How do you find the gear changes now? Something you could get use to? I myself absolutely love it, but that's me :D .
[2] Its definitely good to know that when tuning for more power that Mat can tune the 4eat aswell to help handle the extra power(peace of mind).
[3] Once Mat tuned mine ,it was like driving a completely different car, the accelerator was something I definitely had to get use to, you only had to touch it and it wanted to take off. After going for a few drives and teaching myself to be a bit more gentle with my right foot :lol: , I couldn't be happier :D.
[4] Great to hear that you can get through the week now without having to have to top up, must be pretty happy about that.


Cheers for the comments and comparison to your experience of similar matters :thumbs:

1. The gear changes are great. Never liked "squishy luxury vague" gear changes from an auto anyway. I probably mis-described something in the long post. What I thought was "dropping a gear and accelerating away" was often "staying in the same gear and accelerating away" due to the non-linear nature of turbo boost response and the car's new found willingness to apply torque in any gear from any revs. It was a bit apesh!t with the compromised boost control (vacuum leak) but now it's ok.

2. Yeah, that was the main reason for seeking out Matt's services. Having spent a shocking sum on rebuilding the gearbox I was keen to make sure it was tuned to match the torque. I should have gotten the TH tune earlier if anything because the OEM setup of "engaging" part way through a first-gear launch must be shocking for heat and wear.

3. Yeah, same here - except that the undiagnosed compromised boost control (vacuum leak) for the first week had me bothering Matt with follow-up messages about the throttle response being too crazy :oops: . I'll drive & think a bit more and ultimately decide whether to leave the throttle response alone now or seek a bit more resolution over the full pedal range.

It may still be a good thing to only get maximum throttle angle (as indicated by Torque Pro) when the pedal actually touches the floor, rather than before. Eg might come in handy for better control on a skidpan day or on a wet, off-camber mountain road one night.

4. The second reason for seeking out Matt's services was the rumoured fuel economy gains. It had occurred to me that the extra timing, torque and knock-protection of E85 could surely be used for pottering around and at freeway cruise as well as full-noise.
Matt's approach to fuel economy exceeded my expectations. I can now cruise around at super-low revs like I did with my "low-end monster" manual 3.8litre 6cyl Bomadore (with extractors & tune).

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